tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post112502272745710736..comments2023-09-16T04:36:51.143-05:00Comments on cheese is moldy milk: A cry for logicShawnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06247567992274342429noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125150772435538862005-08-27T08:52:00.000-05:002005-08-27T08:52:00.000-05:00Actually I hate shopping, but how about chocolate ...Actually I hate shopping, but how about chocolate bon-bons in place of shoes ;-)Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125107670856992262005-08-26T20:54:00.000-05:002005-08-26T20:54:00.000-05:00Shawn:Thank you. You have my respect for the same ...Shawn:<BR/>Thank you. You have my respect for the same reasons (that and your<BR/>incredible writing and ability to withstand dippin' dots).<BR/><BR/>Laura: <BR/>Compromise! Shop for shoes AND engage in politics.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09734054212740296271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125102673763818942005-08-26T19:31:00.000-05:002005-08-26T19:31:00.000-05:00Dog, I'm just tryin to live simply, you know?Dog, I'm just tryin to live simply, you know?Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331693555736088798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125100174252894232005-08-26T18:49:00.000-05:002005-08-26T18:49:00.000-05:00Holy crap...I bought a pair of shoes the other day...Holy crap...I bought a pair of shoes the other day!Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06247567992274342429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125098332184173072005-08-26T18:18:00.000-05:002005-08-26T18:18:00.000-05:00Is it your Puritanical upbringing that limits your...Is it your Puritanical upbringing that limits your mind to thinking of only two? Surely three would be even beter...Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06247567992274342429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125096738798621212005-08-26T17:52:00.000-05:002005-08-26T17:52:00.000-05:00tshsmom: I don't know. According to Stephen A, s...tshsmom: I don't know. According to Stephen A, someone who's been harrassing the <A HREF="http://greatwhitebear.blogspot.com/2005/08/some-days-you-just-wanna-grab-em-by.html" REL="nofollow">Great White Bear</A>, I'm just a little Liberal wingnut girl that needs to go shoe shopping and butt out of politics.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125094525975026882005-08-26T17:15:00.000-05:002005-08-26T17:15:00.000-05:00If by "using them wisely" you mean, "finding a way...If by "using them wisely" you mean, "finding a way to do two chicks at once," then <EM>oui,</EM> of course I agree, Peter.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331693555736088798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125093062618424992005-08-26T16:51:00.000-05:002005-08-26T16:51:00.000-05:00You're certainly right about that J-Man. (Your fir...You're certainly right about that J-Man. (Your first previous comment that is...since you slid in two before I could even limber up my typing fingers...man you're good.)<BR/><BR/>I mean, seriously, as much as we might complain about how hard it is to do this or that, or how little time we have, or how things are falling apart...the reality is that we're all pretty blessed to be living now and in the West. <BR/><BR/>We certainly have as many = or more - opportunities than ever before in history. And with those opportunities come the responsibility to use them wisely...something we all could work on. You would agree Monsieur, non?Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06247567992274342429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125092144018930812005-08-26T16:35:00.000-05:002005-08-26T16:35:00.000-05:00A few more comments:I realized that it might seem ...A few more comments:<BR/><BR/>I realized that it might seem like my earlier post and my last one contradicted each other—i.e., first I'm saying that there was more logical discourse because of our visual mindset and later I'm saying that there's never been much logical discourse. There is no contradiction, though, once you remember what a steep rise in literacy we've seen over the past couple of centuries. Literacy used to go hand in hand with logical thought, in part because for centuries, literate people read the same materials—most were familiar with at least the rudiments of Greek thought and philosophy.<BR/><BR/>So there was still a lot of irrationality, but the people in power tended to respect a power structure that allowed for separation of an argument from the arguer. Now there's a lot more literacy, but (1) readers don't get the same training, and (2) TV and the rest of the electronic media tend to overwhelm the less pervasive print technology. (Which is not to say TV is bad—it's just how it works.)<BR/><BR/>And Slade makes a great point. A consequence of print-based technology is that we want to get everything to fit under neat little headings. I think a look at 20th-century science will show that in most of the fields, scientists started seeing that their findings didn't always fit into their previously established categories. It's surely the problem with our schools, where we value a certain kind of thinking (visual thought, or the Three R's) and insist on measuring intelligence and success by those standards, in spite of what reality tells us, which is that some kids are fucking brilliant—they're just not good at writing.<BR/><BR/>And the same thing goes for political labels. A big question these days is who represents people who want to, say, help the environment but are also anti-abortion? We insist in trying to make reality fit our previously established forms. But reality doesn't budge that easily.<BR/><BR/>I think you're wrong, though, Slade, when you say "no one wants to do that." I think a lot of people want to see a change. I'm not suggesting we throw out our party system. I'm just saying our parties would work better if we understood them more.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331693555736088798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125090829522587762005-08-26T16:13:00.000-05:002005-08-26T16:13:00.000-05:00I would suggest that our times are not as dark as ...I would suggest that our times are not as dark as they might at first appear. I think a consequence of life in the global village is a tendency to overdramatize. Sure, there is a dearth of rational thought today. But really, that's been true of pretty much all of history, except for a few bright spots.<BR/><BR/>We talk about this epic clash of beliefs—the left thinks the right is violating basic human rights; the right thinks the left is violating basic human decency. But the truth is, the vast majority of us get up every day and do our thing, and our basic rights aren't violated and we're pretty decent to each other. Pat reminded me the other day that upon being asked, "What happened when the Roman Empire fell?", Mr. Christianson, our sixth-grade social studies teacher, replied: "Well, the next day, everyone woke up, put their shoes on, ate breakfast, and went to work."<BR/><BR/>That's not to say we shouldn't be concerned about the issues at hand. But if we're going to deal with them effectively, we have to approach them rationally.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331693555736088798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125089824020249062005-08-26T15:57:00.000-05:002005-08-26T15:57:00.000-05:00Phoenix - That's a pretty Buddhist idea of analyzi...Phoenix - That's a pretty Buddhist idea of analyzing beliefs. I should do more of it myself.<BR/><BR/>M - Don't feel icky... You put a lot of effort into learning and I totally respect that. I love to 'argue' with you because you put effort into your thoughts.<BR/><BR/>Laura - I agree that many disagreements come from the simple fact that we're disagreeing about something other than what we're arguing about. (For example it you argue that orange sunflowers are best and I argue that yellow are best only to find that we meant the same thing, but were using different terms for them.<BR/><BR/>Slade - That's very true. There's even a term in logic that describes the kind of opposition to an argument based on the listener's opinion of the person making it. <BR/><BR/>(Okay...I thought it was so cool that I looked it up...I'm a dork like that. It's called the ad hominem argument.)<BR/><BR/> <I>...is the ad hominem argument, in which we are encouraged to reject a proposition because it is the stated opinion of someone regarded as disreputable in some way. This can happen in several different ways, but all involve the claim that the proposition must be false because of who believes it to be true:<BR/><BR/> * Harold maintains that the legal age for drinking beer should be 18 instead of 21.<BR/> * But we all know that Harold...<BR/> o ...dresses funny and smells bad. or<BR/> o ...is 19 years old and would like to drink legally or<BR/> o ...believes that the legal age for voting should be 21, not 18 or<BR/> o ...doesn't understand the law any better than the rest of us.<BR/> * Therefore, the legal age for drinking beer should be 21 instead of 18.</I><BR/><BR/>Anyway, personality (or a label such as Democrat or Republican) is irrelevant to truth - even moreso when the labels are emotionally charged.Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06247567992274342429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125089106736874402005-08-26T15:45:00.000-05:002005-08-26T15:45:00.000-05:00jw, that really explains WHY a lot of people think...jw, that really explains WHY a lot of people think like they do.<BR/><BR/>Laura, you're proof of your own point. You find a LOT of common ground with people you don't agree with politically and spiritually. You're open-minded and I respect that!!<BR/><BR/>Slade, you're in the same category with ZS and I. We don't compartmentalize well. But we DO play well with others ;)tshsmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637635755654078408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125084802803263602005-08-26T14:33:00.000-05:002005-08-26T14:33:00.000-05:00If we did follow logic in the way that you are des...If we did follow logic in the way that you are describing, we'd have to get rid of categories (such as democrats and republicans) and sadly no one wants to do that. The reason I say this is because there are very few people who actually believe everything associated with these categories.<BR/><BR/>This makes more sense in my head...sorrybegins with vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05208246022104071380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125079493524226542005-08-26T13:04:00.000-05:002005-08-26T13:04:00.000-05:00I kinda think that on many issues, the majority of...I kinda think that on many issues, the majority of people can find a common ground - excepting maybe the "wedge issues". I think the differences between the sides are overblown by media pundits. If we dig beyond surface affiliations (political, religious, whatever) I think we'd find we agree on a great many things. If we could just get the wingnuts on both sides to shut up for a few minutes.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125079072903790672005-08-26T12:57:00.000-05:002005-08-26T12:57:00.000-05:00Oh, neither one. Shawn mentioned falling back on a...Oh, neither one. Shawn mentioned falling back on a "You're a poopoo head" mentality. And I know there have been times I've done that. Not always vocally, but it's difficult for me sometimes to separate the argument from the arguer.<BR/><BR/>I like Phoenix's idea.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09734054212740296271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125078978986449742005-08-26T12:56:00.000-05:002005-08-26T12:56:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09734054212740296271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125074277201750882005-08-26T11:37:00.000-05:002005-08-26T11:37:00.000-05:00I like to write down my beliefs and convictions an...I like to write down my beliefs and convictions and then deconstruct them. Tear them apart, look at them from 8 angles and ask others opinions.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I see where I ws wrong, sometimes I see where I was right.<BR/><BR/>My personel oprion on the subject of discourse in America is that where once there were slight differentials between left and right, there is now a flat out war for the heart and soul of the country and both sides are dug in.<BR/><BR/>The conservatives have all the advantages now, house, senate, white house, judiciary, media.<BR/><BR/>Most people who are in the middle or left leabing have been made to feel like they are un american, on the fringe and out of touch because of their reliance on facts, truth, rational discourse and moderation. Dark times indeed.thephoenixnychttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164230892526451260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125073744391219692005-08-26T11:29:00.000-05:002005-08-26T11:29:00.000-05:00I meant as in "ick" to which part, the state of 'b...I meant as in "ick" to which part, the state of 'bumpersticker' debate in our country or examining one's own beliefs?Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125071720523538912005-08-26T10:55:00.000-05:002005-08-26T10:55:00.000-05:00It seemed the appropriate expression. I can't real...It seemed the appropriate expression. I can't really think of a deep, meaningful explanation for the word, but if you elaborate on why it baffles you, I'll be happy to try to clear things up.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09734054212740296271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125057361572112592005-08-26T06:56:00.000-05:002005-08-26T06:56:00.000-05:00Miranda, I have to ask: why "ick"?Miranda, I have to ask: why "ick"?Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125057192875783652005-08-26T06:53:00.000-05:002005-08-26T06:53:00.000-05:00I think you hit the nail on the head: Most people ...I think you hit the nail on the head: Most people do not take the time to examine the "why" of their beliefs, just the "whats".<BR/><BR/>We all have our erroneous beliefs, some more than others.<BR/><BR/>It takes courage and a certain level of maturity, first and foremost, to take a step back and examine your beliefs critically. You may find that you've been wrong about something - or believed something for the wrong reasons, and depending on the issue, that is very hard for some people to face. I wish more people would do do it though.<BR/><BR/>I respect someone's opinions more if they have critically examined WHY they hold them (beyond "I was raised that way" or "because I'm a democrat/republican") and can back them up, regardless of whether or not we agree.Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129109937230440481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125036847677711642005-08-26T01:14:00.000-05:002005-08-26T01:14:00.000-05:00This is one of those posts that makes me leave han...This is one of those posts that makes me leave hanging my head.<BR/>Ick. <BR/><BR/>Oh well! I'm off to the kitchen<BR/>to drink day old chai in penance!Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09734054212740296271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125033848644615652005-08-26T00:24:00.000-05:002005-08-26T00:24:00.000-05:00Well written Shawn. That's one thing I really adm...Well written Shawn. That's one thing I really admire about you. You'll have your opinion, and whether I agree or disagree with it, you'll at least have valid reasons for believing what you do.<BR/><BR/>What drives me nuts is when someone would immediately attack my character instead of my belief. The fact that I'm whatever I am has nothing to do with the argument. They just don't know how to stick to the argument.The Zombieslayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00739873812900433755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125029767232446372005-08-25T23:16:00.000-05:002005-08-25T23:16:00.000-05:00A great post, of course, sir.Guess who would say t...A great post, of course, sir.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.marshallmcluhan.com/" REL="nofollow">Guess who would say</A> the lack of logic in our discourse is the result of a shift from a visual, print mentality (where ideas follow sequentially from one other) to an acoustic, electric mentality (where ideas bump into each other discontinously, from all directions)? And that if we explored our technologies better, instead of just worrying about the "moral" qualities of their contents, we could get this figured out? Guess who'd say that?<BR/><BR/>I love that guy.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13331693555736088798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12134022.post-1125023362601654552005-08-25T21:29:00.000-05:002005-08-25T21:29:00.000-05:00EXCELLENT post!!EXCELLENT post!!tshsmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637635755654078408noreply@blogger.com